Interview with Bine
Ris Orangis, 06./.07.11.1989
H: Let's start with Jutta. Jutta told me that she had an opt-out in Perrotet which must have been huge.
B: Yes. I remember that one.
H: What happened?
B: So Jutta was drunk quite a lot at the time. And every time she drank too much, she opt out. That means: head negative. So everything that somehow came up, I think, was somehow already right, but she only saw it from one side and from the negative side. And what happened in Perrotet towards the group, I don't know anymore, I only know that afterwards the discussion started whether Jutta is allowed to drink at all or not.
H: How did that happen? Was I even there?
B: I don't know anymore, but I think so, because that was in this house.
H: Okay, but I haven't been there for a whole week.
B: You may not have been there.
H: Because I had gone away with Ali, to Berlin. That was after August came.
B: Oh, wait a minute. I don't know if Ali was there, but it was a lot about Ali.
H: What was that about Ali?
B: And Jutta was just totally jealous of Ali in relation to me. Because Jutta and I actually did a lot together the whole time before. And since Ali was there... I had fun with Ali, or had a good time with Seppel, which means we liked to do something together. Jutta was jealous and she kept coming up with the same things, she is not interesting when she is sad or when she has her deprivation phase. That means I'm someone very superficial, which means I only like the people who are funny. That's how she blamed me. And so what I said earlier that I think she sees things already correctly, but only the negative was true in a certain way, because Jutta, as well as realizing that I was with Ali a lot and with Seppel a lot, had blocked her of course. That means cool with me. Cool and since she was depressed a lot anyway, she was down a lot. But if someone is cool with me and I try to get to it so often. I don't know what to talk to her at all, so there's no natural relationship anymore. Well, you drill and drill, but there's nothing, there's nothing; of course I was just with Seppel and with Ali a lot of together. And then the accusation came, that was really a heavy night. Absolutely! And the next day, she didn't know that much about it either. And then, the discussion started. I don't know how this ended either...
H: There was a ban on alcohol for Jutta.
B: Yes, yes, as the night has ended, whether with quite a roar, or...
H: Well, I can barely remember it, but it can only have been told to me.
B: And another time there was something like that again, so it was the same accusation.
Did it just turn against you?
B: Nope. I think in Perrotet it was the whole group. One time it was against me in my relationship with Ali. That was near Alicante when those freaks came in...
H: Denia!
B: Right there. Maybe I'm confusing the subject right now.
H: In Denia Seppel and Ali had a lot of fun.
B: Yeah, sure. But that had nothing to do with Jutta's thoughts. Jutta knew that I am not at all with Ali or Seppel or something like that. It wasn't sexual jealousy. It's just: I can have more fun with him than with her. I'm more fun with them than I am with her.
H: Yes, that was very important to her because otherwise she felt alone again. How did you see that with Geigi? I mean, Jutta-Geigi, the whole story?
B: Was that in Perrotet at the time?
H: That was actually the whole time.
B: Until August came. But that was more Katharina.
H: Well, Jutta and August must have been there sometime, but at first it was Geigi. And then Biggi came and then Geigi had nothing left for Jutta.
B. Yeah, right.
H: Don't you think that this is not the same thing...
B: Sure, but she never said that frankly. Jutta has always been someone who, as an ideal, already had such a free love in her head. That she likes to be with Geigi, but Geigi can do what he wants. And she's in love with him, but...
She didn't accept jealousy or anything. And when Biggi came, she was really in trouble, so with head and feeling. That's how I see it. On the one hand, that she didn't accept it, so now God damn it: "You pig, I'm jealous!" You can compensate for that in different ways, the feeling. No, she accepted it, but she was very unconscious. And I mean, if she was sick, she starts drinking. And then things like that came out once in a while when she'd been drinking too much.
Clearly, she said what she meant. But on the other hand, there is only one side, always the negative side. They always say children or alcoholics tell the truth, but on the other hand, they always see only one side, you know. One truth. Which they feel extremely at this moment. The next day they can be different then you really feel the opposite. I know that about me, too. Even if you're not drunk. You can have two completely different views of something from one day to the next.
H: How was that received then? How did you see that? Was there any trouble, taboos? Because, I feel like little has been said. So little about us, about the people themselves. Clarify feelings, clarify situations.
B: I think that's been tried. But there are also situations like this, especially when you're on a pile of eight/nine/ten people, but there's no contact with "aliens", or let's say we're the "extraterrestrials", with "earthly". Then it starts to spin in circles. Because it's becoming kind of paradoxical. Especially with this ban on Jutta. For me that was paradoxical. Sure, you can ban someone from drinking alcohol, but you don't solve anything. And that was one of those things, I think it was like this: you don't know what else. Because there were really such moments when it was really heavy, so "psycho". And then you become an authoritarian, and then you forbid alcohol. Well, that's not gonna happen. You didn't know Jutta unless she was drunk. If she was sober and she was in a bad mood, she kept her mouth shut. It's more comfortable for the group.
H: Although Jutta has also used this in part to assert herself.
B: But not consciously. I'm sure of that.
H: How did you see that with me?
B: What?
H: Yes, because, at least from my point of view there are similarities to Jutta, so in behavior.
B: Virgin! Virgin!
H: This is silly.
B: Nah, that's not silly.
H: All right, okay. Geigi told me that he - I'm in Granada now - at some point I ran away, Geigi said that he got scared.
B: I don't remember that.
H: This behavior of mine, retreating so far. Nothing more to say, nothing more to be addressed at all.
B: My memories of you: There was the beginning, the first quarter/half year. That we almost always met for breakfast. The two of us were up very early, always. You've almost always taken care of everything. In the beginning. That you had a total power at the beginning - very positive. Let's do it, let's go. Very positive. Then what I said earlier, when you said that you knew this from me the bullshit, which I never had as an impression, but simply, you are someone who can tell a great story. Sometimes you think it's annoying when someone starts with Adam and Eve, but with you I've always accepted or enjoyed it somehow. Because just the way you tell it, the peace and quiet you have, etc., I just enjoyed it, I like it, I totally like it. Because I don't have it. You're like that to me.
And then I can remember a scene where we both got into each other's hair once. You probably don't remember that. For me, that was terribly important. That was Bordeaux, Pyla-Plage. It's because of semolina. There was a time when we used to take turns cooking. Because you've been cooking most of the time. But it was the case that we said: Today Seppel and Ali are cooking, Jutta and me. And Jutta and I, we used to make semolina and rice pudding. Jutta and I cooked, did the groceries, and you said there's semolina! And I: Yes. With sour cherries. You've totally screwed yourself on that. Absolutely! And I took it seriously. Because I like semolina. We got our hair kicked because of that semolina.
H: Yes, how? Did we each other...
B: ... shredded, just verbal. Well, God, the feeling was quickly revived. But I was thinking, you know, that... uh... you know, so stubborn. Sometimes I remember you so stubbornly. And later, as far as the canyon is concerned, sometimes stubborn and conservative. So conservative, things... How we started it... the bus time, trying to preserve things. But that was, I think, this counterpoint against August.
H: How did this develop in the canyon?
B: Between you?
H: Yes.
B: I had the feeling that when August came, at the beginning you were actually very good together.
H: Also from August?
B: Yes. There was some kind of really good connection there. Wasn't that you and August who sold that car in Marseilles together?
H: No, we didn't sell it.
B: Nope. But you were on the road together.
H: I don't know. I think he was more likely with Geigi.
B: With Geigi?
H: We were in Marseilles together, that's right. But I had nothing to do with selling the car. It was more like Gogo.
B: Yes. That could be true. In any case, I always had the feeling that it was pretty good connection at first, and.... in the Canyon... August, which can be very dominant. As far as the making goes. Very dominant. But in a very knitted way. And I think you're a very dominant person, too. But in a way that's not so knitted. Not so obvious. And I think how this started, it was a bit of a power struggle. Was there Manfred still there in the canyon? Nah. Because Manfred is the third person for me, who also has such a dominance, but again in a different way. Manfred: If he can't be himself, he retreats or leaves. That's why he left. Because he somehow couldn't live his dominance.
H: Not because of Katharina?
B: Of course, that has to do with it. So not only dominance in the group, but...
H: ... also with the woman!
B: Ja!
H: What do you think why did August and I fight? I mean, it was obviously fighting.
B: Jealousy! Envy! Against each other. From all of us somehow it was clear that we were doing this play and there is in this play... Yes, August is more or less directing it; he has the general idea, whatever comes up, but from the idea, it was his. And he's practically directing it. That was a thing you didn't accept. I believe. So where you blocked. In my opinion. And on the other hand, August is also afraid of you because you were quite an authority in the group before he came. What does authority mean, but someone who... who was believed in, who stood for something, that means, if you are against him, it can be that you attract a lot of people to your side. Which means, a gap in the group. I mean, who left: Mario, you, Seppel and Ali, not only did one leave, but there were three more.
H: Do you see that in a context?
B: It was the case that first Seppel and Ali said they were leaving. And then you and Mario said that when the two of them leave, there's not much left of the group for you.
H: How did you see that? Did you accept that?
B: That you leave?
H: Nope. The way it was argued.
B. Yes. So I know that you guys argued also musically at the time. This means that if Seppel leaves, Seppel has mainly composed or arranged pieces, and if he leaves, then it will be musically uninteresting for you, because there were more people who are on stage then there are people who make music, or who think about music. That's the argumentation, I remember.
H: It was rather the other way around, what I said at that time: August, in the theatre, yes, only the everyday life, everything that concerned the other course of events, he became too dominant for me at that time. More like that.
B: That's the way it was. But that could not be separated in this group either. Everyday life and work. It just couldn't be separated anymore. And that was the hard part of it. It was just one sauce.
H: You can now compare this very well, because you have continued this life most consistently.
B: Yes. It's true, what is different at ARCAOS now is, there are much more people and it's already quite clear like a boss-employee principle: I'm paid! On tour we are over fifty people with people who are still employed somehow. And you're never involved in all fifty. Or if, as it was with us, in pairs, look, Jutta-Geigi, there are some, between two,... well if you e. g., with Isabelle it was like that when her boyfriend broke up with her, for her it was totally heavy. And that's where I got the whole story from her. But if of anyone, what do I know, the woman does the lighting and one of them does the piste when they are together and now sharpen themselves, and there's some kind of heart pity, you don't get that in the sense. Not if you don't have anything to do with them privately.
H: What did the bus mean to you, what was that for you?
B: For me, the family was, yes. Family, then work together, so that what I always wanted, I never wanted to separate private and work. No need to work with people I don't have anything to do with, working together and making my private life at the same time. And I still don't want that now. I want to do projects that interest me, where people who are interested in me take part. And if there's money, it's good, too. I mean, I could make more money everywhere than I do at ARCAOS. Really! But that's not my point. It's my concern. If I like this thing, I know there's people I like, too. You know, that's not for nothing.
H: And was it already so clear in the bus at that time?
B: Nah, with the bus, that started differently. I first knew the people and afterwards we had the idea to do something like this together. But it was already clear to me: this dream of living together, of being able to feed together. I mean, before that, the dream was to make a village in the Rhön. Same in green. This had nothing to do with spectacle, but it's a project. And that's what I still want now. When I do something, I want to make a project with people I can and a project that interests me. And I'm working there now....
H: And why did the whole thing break up?
B: Because it had to fall apart. We were too isolated from the outside world. We were very close to each other and abroad. Which is much more difficult than in Germany, you will get to know people much faster. I notice that now, you can never talk to French like your beak grew, as if you were talking to Germans. You always look for words. And if you are then only with Germans in the group and you get to meet people outside, you never have so much time, or so much muse, or interest to get to know someone properly. Because you don't do anything with it, you only spend your free time with other people. And because we were very isolated, at some point it blocks the ideas of what to do together.
Theoretically, we already had the ideas in mind, new show and we do that and we do this. That was in Villobi. But on the other hand, you're blocked among each other because all the images are fixed. Everyone has their own image. Wherever he doesn't come out. I mean, that was one of the reasons Ali and Seppel left. They were always the little ones. They go; what did they do, they do their own thing. To prove that they are not the little ones, they can do their own thing. And you have qualities that you learn from these things and don't take off. I can see that now. I never had to do anything. Which had to do with technology, or practical things. Because there were always there who I could ask: "Oh Gogo, or oh Hermann, can you do that for me? It's a thing I haven't taken off till today. Sometimes I think I'm so clumsy! As for everyday things. If you're on tour somehow, what you have to be able to do. But I can't, because I always find people with my way of doing things for me.
H: Yes, that's right. You should have been forced. Every now and then Geigi used to say fatherly: "No, you do it yourself now.
B: Yes, but it didn't work for me.
H: It is interesting how you see the necessities. There are groups that have been together for ages.
B: But even if they are eternities together, they have changed their form or on the other hand people. So they either got bigger or smaller. Which has a lot to do with being abroad or being in your own country. Where you're stabilizing. We have not stabilized in Germany. We have stabilized abroad. Or wanted to stabilize us abroad. Which is much more difficult. Because you're in a ghetto.
H: That goes without saying, but it was simply impossible in Germany.
B: For us in the form we have chosen. On the bus, living outside.
H: I also think I don't know who said it, if we had stayed in Germany, we would have split up after three months.
B: Yeah, sure. Of course, that also forges together. You are totally dependent on each other abroad. You have a need for survival! And you don't have that in Germany. You can go to work, or you have friends to sleep with, or mum and dad. We were all not far from home, from Mom and Dad! Because we just left home, except for you and Biggi and August. We were just freshmen. The first full experience. Lanneshof and Zwiebel, that was all with background.
H: I think there was a difference between me and the other people, because I saw other things. Because I had already had a pack behind me and saw other things and wanted to push through them, but then I ran against a wall, because that was not accepted, because it could not be accepted either.
B: Yes, that's right.
H: I have tried to bring a discussion into the ideological arena from time to time. ... Can you say something to each and every one of us?
B: To everyone who was there?
H: Yes. So at the beginning, in the middle and at the end. What's changed? Why do you think we started back then? What was that all about?
B: The reason we left together? It was that we all wanted to leave Fulda. Everyone wanted to do something together. To make a dream come true. And since we just made music and pantomime together... That was the reason, I would say. That's why the idea came up that you can do such a project together. But I think at the very beginning the main reason was to live together, to do something together. To do!
And the focus has shifted more and more, which means that what you do has become more and more important. The demand for it. So becoming more professional. And this cohabitation became more natural. But when you think about it, at the beginning, what we've contented ourselves with. We had no luxury at all. Starting with food, money or something. And the second year was quite a difference. Secondly, you wanted to go to the pub once in a while, so you wanted to buy something personal if it was possible. In the first year it was just like that, so for me, I could always drive around, I would never need money, it could go on like this forever. And that's changed for me in the second year. I mean, that was already in Granada because it was raining, we needed a house. You needed more space, more luxury.
H: How did you stand with the individual people? At the beginning, what was the relationship like? Was there any confusion?
B: No, not at all in the beginning. I think you have more to do with one, less with the other. For example, who I almost never had anything to do with all the time, that was Biggi. Gogo once in a while, sometimes really good. And every now and then I didn't even know what was going on in him.
H: Did it bother you, or was that okay?
B: Sometimes, so in Biggi's case I noticed that I don't know her very well, then I thought, that's really shit. You don't really know them. But at some point I thought, there're ten people, you can't know them all equally well, or have the same dealings with them, or say, "Oh, I like them all the same." It's just not like that. It wasn't like that, either. And at some point I realized that Biggi doesn't really interest me that much either.
H: How did it go down so everyday?
B: It didn't crash! You can live together. You can just live together.
H: Yes, what does it look like, what happens in you when you notice something like that?
B: At first I thought I had to do something about it. But then I thought you just had to accept that. You're not particularly interested in her.
H: Why did you think you had to change something first?
B: Well, that's the ideal thing: You have to get along with everyone, you have to know them all well, or blah, blah, blah, blah.
H: What does ideal thing mean? Where did that come from?
B: From us, from our heads.
H: Has this been discussed? Has that been declared in any way?
B: No, not at all! But you can tell by the claim. Or the claim with which we also drove away. You're taking off with the people you want to hang out with.
H: Biggi wasn't there at the beginning.
B: Yeah, sure. But now there's someone with whom you don't really care if you do something with him or not.
H: And that puts moral pressure on you? That's not supposed to be like that, is it?
B: I don't think it should be like this. But I think I triggered it myself.
H: I think it was a kind of morality that you put yourself up to.
B: Then, yes, for sure.
H: At the beginning there was e. g. the same, this huge action, this huge discussion with and because of Manfred.
B: That's right, there was trouble for the first few weeks. Wasn't that between you and Manfred?
H: I know that we had the concluding discussion at your home in the living room about what is now with Manfred. And I had travelled alone with Katharina to Munich. And when we were in Kulmbach, Seppl and Manfred suddenly appeared. Manfred with his: "I have to hold you". Probably or maybe he was jealous. And before, he had said that he was not going. Out of some frustration, the devil knows something. And then he wanted to go with us again. Then we discussed it and then it was said again that Manfred can ride along, although I had something against it and Geigi also said that he would think it sucks if he only drove along because of Katharina.
B: Yes, I was in favour of Manfred going with us. But I think there were also other reasons, because he was simply competent.
H: Competent?
B: In what we did. That must have been a reason for me, too.
H: You made a distinction between them back then? I love to go with him and I like to go with him because he is competent.